Monday, May 12, 2008
Stats Update
The links are on the side bar.
Some Stats to Ponder about...
Despite being criticized for his play at times, Brendon is tied as the all time wins leader. He is tied with a player that doesn't deserve that many wins, considering his play...(sorry couldnt resist)
Nick has now passed Reggie in Assists on the season-How does that make Reggie look?
In a past poll we asked you who would end up with more goals this year:Reggie or Luke? 13 people(56%)said Luke would, while 10(43%) said Reggie... They are now tied at three...
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welcome to monday's edition of "things that make you go 'hmmmmm'"
today we'll take a closer look at j riley and eric in the stats department.
johnny has 129 career points, this to eric's 32..."BUT WAIT" you say, "ERIC HAS ONLY BEEN PLAYING A FEW WEEKS". a closer look, however, reveals j riley has played 4 times as many games as eric. If we were to multiply eric's production by 4 to equal the games played, he gets 128 points, falling 1 short of riley.
stay tuned this week for updated edtions of "things that make you go 'hmmmmm'".
Here's an update to "things that make you go hmmmmm":
I say "hmmmmm" when someone tries to convince me that Riley is better than Eric.
As in "hmmmmm, what did you just say? I'm sorry, I didn't hear you. It almost sounded like you made a case that makes no sense"
If Eric showed up for 1 game, and scored a hat-trick, where do you think he would among "career averages"?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against Johnny, but Eric is the most skilled guy we have.
your argument falls apart because eric has a large sampling size (15 games). and everyone is very happy with his production considering he's topping power rankings. all the stats show is that johnny has been producing better than that for 4 times as long. numbers don't lie!!! now let's be unbiased towards this and not freak out when the numbers go against your friends! muahahahahah....muahhaahahaha
Did you not read the comment? Johnny is great, but Eric is better. Or would be less offensive to you to say,
"Eric, though greatly skilled, is not the best player we have, because if you look at someone else's career points and multiply by 5.6, find the cube root of the result and add 8, you will see that Eric is not the best, someone else is."
How's that? Wheather Eric is my friend or not doesn't matter.
It seems like someone is jealous of Eric.
what's brett's career OYOPG (orders yelled out per game) :-)
you are throwing opinions at us, and as the resident stat guru, i'm throwing facts. is there some haterade going on, perhaps...and i'm sorry if my math equations were too complicated...but i would like all your counter arguments to have numbers to back them up.
I can help your argument for eric if you want, just ask, i'll do some research. remember, no opinions.
look it up then, who's better?
wow, alot of anti eric talk tonight! i thought he did good yesterday.
The stats sound pretty even to me, I'll take Johnny and Eric on my team any day!
I guess the debate is bigger than the whole Eric Vs. Johnny question. They are both awesome players. The debate boils down to your personal preference:
Who would you rather have on your hockey team, a Crosby type or a Malkin type?
(Crosby is my choice)
I guess I'd want a Crosby-type player on my team, someone who is a team player and productive.
crosby.
butch stearns
I don't know...I like Crosby, but Malkin was a scoring machine this year. Overall...Crosby, for this year...Malkin.
stearns...i'm not so sure about that
Pondering choices, how does the "Eric Vs. Johnny debate", as you call it, have any bearing on a question of Crosby Vs. Malkin? With Crosby and Malkin, one does not have to pick. THEY ARE ON THE SAME TEAM! Who are we supposed to be as choosers? Fans? General Managers? Teammates? I don't understand?
To what's the point, let me make it a clearer for you, okay? I'll type slow for you.
Crosby can score points, but is also an effective passer who can improve his teammates' performance.
Malkin is a good pure scorer who can take the puck himself or accept a pass and score.
Are you keeping up okay? Very Good!
So, now I ask you "what's the point" Who would you rather have on a team that you were starting from scratch?
Got it now? see the point?
You typed slow for me, huh?
Listen, you don't need to be insulting to make your stupid points. I get your question, but I still think it has no practical value. Is Eric supposed to represent Malkin? I'll put it to you this way.
If we were talking football and I asked you to pick, Brady or Moss, who would you pick?
If you say "Brady", you have a good QB with no skilled reciever.
If you say "Moss", you have a good WR with no one to pass the ball to him.
See what I mean? WHAT'S THE POINT!!!
Think before you type! You said: "If we were talking football"
WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT FOOTBALL!!!
All I was asking was if Eric is a Malkin-type (take the puck and go)and Johnny is a Crosby-type (score or pass), who would be a better fit in you average team?
Obviously, this is beyond your thinking ability, "what's the point".
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"Pondering", see the text above? That's from striking the keyboard in frustration.
You said it all in your last comment. You said Eric was equatible to Malkin who in your description, is a "take the puck and go" type. And you said you would pick Crosby.
Basically, this is nothing more than an excuse for Eric bashing. Eric can pass as well as shoot, but is better just scoring. His options depend on the play. Johnny is awesome too and the stats prove it (see first comment) but this whole hypothetical question was just your way of saying that Eric should pass more.
Wasn't it?
Thanks for pondering my stupidity, I'll be pondering your cowardliness.
Listen here you amateurs, we just reviewed the tape and it's not even close. Eric is a number 1 pick on everybody's draft board. Riley is a high 3rd rounder at best. Riley can play but is not a coveted pick like Eric would be.
In terms of pure hockey skills, Eric shows superior at stick handling, shooting, speed and moves. Eric is still a teenager, and therefore he has virtually endless upside.
Riley has size and plays his position and has good hockey sense. He can make a team better plus shows good leadership skills. However, he is almost 10 years older than Eric.
And for those dumb ones that say stats don't lie. Please, what competition was there, at times, when Riley scored all his goals?
I would like anybody to justify to us how Riley is a better pick than Eric...
Cheer up Johnny, lots of 3rd rounders have had solid careers.
welcome to tuesday's edition of "things that make you go 'hmmmmm'"
yesterday we got some heated discussions over j riley and eric, to fierce competitors that perhaps can be seen on the same team this weekend.
today we'll look closer at Billy "the better" Driscol and old friend Cliff in the stats department.
Cliff currently sits 3 points behind Billy, with 4 less games played. If we were to even the games played out with Cliff mantaining this pace, Cliff would be at 29+ points in 16 games, to Billy's 25 points.
If we take a closer look, we'll find that Cliff and Billy are our top scorers against Joe and J Riley, 2 of our finest Saugus goalies.
The Stats give Cliff a slight edge but winning percentage cannot be overlooked as sits at a commendable 56% wp, whearas Cliff sits at below 42%
You guys with these stats keep missing a very huge point. Who were these guys playing against with they racked up their points?
Take this guy Cliff. I played him once on a night that I had no energy and was frankly bored out there. Old Cliff and Riley scored in bunches. Now bring old Cliff against the IRON MEN of Sunday night.
Old Cliff showed up just once when I was there with the IRON. He was INVISIBLE. He provided nothing for his team.
Now contrast that with Billy, who always plays when the best of what we have to offer are there. Your stat comparisons are a joke.
Take that back to the drawing board and HMMMMMMM over it a while!!!!!
CALM DOWN!
we're just having a good time here, no need to take shots at players.
Alright alright, I’ve calmed down. Thanks Rosie, man what are we going to do now that you’ve been cut by belichick? Sure going to miss you, especially those missed tackles and missed sacks.
I just had a triple stack hamburger. That contributed to the calming effect.
Ok, Stat guy, your analysis has put me to sleep. Try picking two guys that are at least comparable next time.
Lots and lots of love to you, stat guy. bye bye now
Wow, third round! Who would have thought, way back, when, as a child growing up on the mean streets of Haverhill that I would reach such heights! My thanks goes out to my 6th grade gym teacher who let me use my first plastic stick, Nike for making sneakers for me to wear, and of course to my AA sponsor which has helped me to stay clean all these years!
My whole two cents on it: Eric is super-skilled and is a great player. Has an edge over me in slapshot (obviously), one-on-one moves against a defender, speed. I feel I have a pretty sizable edge passing / playmaking and defensive awareness. I feel stickhandling in close and wrist shots we're about even. Personally I like my game better right now, primarily because I think it leads to a better chance to win (although I'm admittedly going to be biased). My game at his age isn't nearly as good as his is now, and I'm sure that when he's my age he'll have a big edge (at which time I'll be up in Ron's neighborhood and we see what that can do to your skils :)
The points initially made about the stats is a good one: stats can be misleading, and they can also be revealing. The biggest thing to look at is sample size. Someone scores a hat trick and never shows up again, it's unreasonable to assume they would have kept that pace up. There are assumptions that you can't necessarily base on stats: Jared has a sizable lead on everyone assists, although you usually don't think of him as a Gretzky-like passer. However he's involved in the offense a lot, so you have to keep in mind the rebounds that are generated. That's why it's hard to make assumptions with any stats.
All that being said, the implication that I'm padding my stats against "lesser talent" isn't a fair statement to make as: 1. it's a bit demeaning to everyone that's played over the last couple of years, and 2. most of the games I've played have been against Borges and Jared, as well as usually the better goalie that night. I'd rather have a challenge then know it's going to be an easy win - it's more rewarding.
One side note: again, no offense to Eric, but if I were picking I'd go with Borges next.
Welcome to a SPECIAL afternoon edition of "things that make you go 'hmmmmm'"
We'll will be comparing the statistical seasons of Jared and the 1980-1981 season of Wayne Gretzky in which he won the hart, lester B. pearson, and Art Ross trophys.
In that fabulous season gretzky played 80 games piling up 164 points, this gave him an astounding 2.05 ppg.
Jared has yet to throw down 80 games in his young career, but he does have 121 points in 59 games, also giving him a 2.05 ppg average.
If we were to give him an 80 game average, Jared would average out to 164.0678 points, surpassing Gretzky by a small fraction.
Jared also has 11 gw goals in 59 games whearas Gretzky threw down 3 in 80 games.
Finally Gretzky had a 29-35 record that season excluding ties, Jared has a career 33-26 record.
The numbers don't lie
Sorry Jared, I didn't know...next time we order jerseys we should give you number 100 (slightly better than Gretzky :)
I like how all of the so-called "stat minded people" have completely tried to steer the discussion away from the Eric Vs. Johnny question, now that everyone is defending Eric. I agree, Riley is good, but don't slam Eric!
PLEASE TELL ME THIS WHOLE DEBATE IS A JOKE ABOUT ERIC AND RILEY!!!!
Look at the competition!!!!!
It has gotten better.
Eric has to play verse better people than johnny did. Better goalies.
Johnny can finnish but can't create. Eric can do both
"Hmmmmmmmmmm really", you can pick teams next week and see if you pick riley as your first pick.
This proves my point about lemieux and gretzky. Gretzky had more points (riley has more points) but lemiux is better (eric is better)
I guess this was a heated debate well into the midnight.
Eric's better.
Stop trying to spin the numbers. Eric did awesome Sunday, why are some of you to trying to tell him that he didn't!
"Good job Eric!...Oh, wait. Look at the stats...Bad job Eric, you stink!"
Give me a break!
Sorry.
I want "Good Day" to pick the teams!!
For making this ridiculas point about eric and riley.
Eric Pros:
way faster
way better shot
way better puck handling
Can control the play
Way better 1 on 1
Cons:
barely passes
Passes at the wrong times
dangles too much at times
Johny R Pros:
Sets up in the slot (glen murray-like)
Backchecks good
can finish the play
Con:
Slapshot has yet to leave the ground.
Can't thread the needle for a pass. passing to a wide open person doesn't make you a great passer.
Has the puckhandling skills of jared . . . which = none
doesn't go behind the net
i think he steals alot of glory from borges and jared.
He's still a top six player. Eric's one or two.
Why are you guys even making the comparison, are you going to ask one of them to leave? Brett's right, Eric is a top 2 guy, Riley is a top 10.
right on brett
Yeah, whats going on? The poor kid, he's really good. Stop trying to tear him down.
WOW!!! this is somthing.
all good points from people. here is what i think.
eric is an awsome athlete. his quickness and stick handling are rivaled by none. he has a great shot.(although it is very inaccurate, which takes away how good it is.)
j riley has the opposite of everything eric has. he has great hockey sense, plays good defense, makes up for his bad slap shot with an accurate wrist shot which gives him the ability to finsh.
they are total opposites which makes it hard to say who is better. they are 1a and 1b, i wouldnt put one in the top 2 and one in the top ten, thats ridiculous. they are very close.
if i need a guy to weave through 15 angry griffs eric is my guy.
if i need to win a hockey game it without a doubt goes to j riley.
this debate about eric and johnny is ridiculas
1.) The stat comparison isn't right out of the people we come with eric has shown up less times yet in stats he has only played one less game then billy
last week was one of the few nights eric has shown up for all games he consistetly shows up halfway through the second game
correctly i would say he has played about 12 games which if you multiply by five which would be how many more games riley has played it gives eric 160 career points
2.) it is fair to say you have played against lesser talent when roughly twice as many games have been played with out eric, billy, brett, ron bob griff it is easier to score therefore points aren't accurate again,
3. I can bet if i played some of the games you did without the best players i would be able to gain much more points it's not knocking them its just there our other players who are great players who have alot of experience
4.)No offense riley i have yet to see you leave players dased and confused after making a play around them or a pass between there legs
and im sure there will never be a time i do
5.)eric is an all around incredible player one only ron could rival and only in his younger years (no offense ron) if i had to pick between the two i would choose eric and not cause im biased he can carry a team not something many can do. if im on a team and down by three points with not much time left you better believe if eric gets on the ice i have full confidence that he's gonna get the job done
Top Players Saugus Hockey
1.) Eric
2.) Ron not injured
3.) Borges
4.) Billy
5.) Riley
6.) Jared
7.) Bob
8.) Griff
9.) Bredon
10.)Nick
11.)Brad
12.)Lee
13. goggles
14. ronnie
15. Brett
I reluctantly agree with Brett and Ariel. Say what you want about Eric's style of play, he is talented and effective. Some of you guys are acting like cry-babies! Some of the comments I'm reading are just plain crazy!
What, because Eric doesn't pass you the puck enough or blow kisses to you when he out maneuvers you, that's reason to crown Riley the king of Hockey?
That's Childish.
To "rable rable",
Do you realize what you said? Here is the quote:
"if i need to win a hockey game it without a doubt goes to j riley."
(sigh)
If you need to win a game it goes to Riley? It? What's it? Please tell me you mean the empty spot on the bench and not the puck!!!
I'm sure we all have spell check on our computers, but sadly you are in desperate need of reality check.
When the game is on the line, you hand the Salty Dog a hockey stick, and you hand Riley a clipboard.
35 clips are on the way in 2 videos. There now uploading to youtube. Should be viewable within an hour or so.
I hope my first cut makes all this worth it. Enjoy... I sure did!!!
Oh, and the Editor didn't show up for work while I was cutting the tape up!!!
Have any of you heard of the hockey player Joe Malone? He was a dynamic player who's claim to fame was a game on Jan. 31, 1931 when he scored an NHL record 7 goals in a game. SEVEN! He played for the Quebec Bulldogs. That's right the Bulldogs.
You see, Joe was a shining star in a sea of hockey mediocrity. If he played now you might say "Hey that Malone guy reminds me of Drury." (or something like that)
To go along with Brett's comment, Johnny flourished in a "pre-Eric" game. Like Joe Malone, he padded his stats againt average competition. Now, that Eric is a regular, should we remind him that he is "worse" that other guys that have played longer?
NO.
So now old Joe and his pretty good career have been pushed aside by the likes of Lemieux and Gretzky.
And rightfully so.
So now its time to realize that the game is different, and thanks to Eric...much better.
next sunday all those that honestly think riley is better, be on rileys team. all those that honestly think eric is better, play on eric's team.
Remember . . who was the weakest player going down to florida?
Who was last in the M.V.P. votes?
Please who ever created this monster of eric vs. johnny, let us know who you are so that we can fully understand where this opinion is coming from.
I wouldn't mind having riley on my team at all. But to pick him first . . .? He hasn't been picked first since billy and eric have been playing.
Eric is picked over riley even when he isn't gonna be there for the first game
It'd be interesting to see riley's stats since playing with blly and eric.
I guess we'll have to wait till sunday to see who's picked first
Riley rules!
Reasons:
1 attitude
2 experience
3 determination
4 size
5 puck distribution
eric has none of these qualities
Ok, for all of you nerds that still don't get it:
Eric is Superman
Johnny R is Aquaman
Brett is Wonder Woman
See?
Believe me, I’m on the side that that believes it is no contest. See my Belichick and Peoli comment this morning.
However, as all will soon see, on the highlight clips, Johnny Riley shined on Sunday Night.
Was he better than Eric… No, but hasn’t that has been debated enough?
The fact is, Riley squeezes out every ounce of skill that he has… and he makes it work. As everybody knows he played against Billy, Eric and Skippy on Sunday. Gotta give the guy some props... he’s made my High Five this week.
hey, I like the superhero analogies. How about x-men?
Eric is wolverine
riley is cyclops
brett is banshee, the guy whos power was to yell super loud :-)
yeah, it's time for all the "Eric bashers" to admit defeat.
as the resident stat guru (if my Gretzky vs. jared comparison didn't give it away), there was no bashing of eric or riley, it was just comparing two different players.
I also recall eric scoring a lot against me in net, as well as Griff and Bob not being there with only 1 sub a side, i wouldn't say he's faced the best compitition either.
Sunday i would like to play on Riley's team. Eric has all the talent in the world, but i'm looking to win.
Is this a contradiction?
"there was no bashing of eric"
"Eric has all the talent in the world, but i'm looking to win."
No Eric Bashing? I'm not so sure about that.
i said "there WAS no bashing of eric". that is past tense, later on in the post i took a quick shot.
go back to grammar school, and don't call me out until you do some research...ahahahahahaha....muahahahahahaha
I agree, there's no bashing of eric taking place. I think both johnny r and eric are good. That joe malone story was awesome, by the way. I see what you were getting at about how the game can change over time.
Jared is right, there's no insults, just comparisons. (although I'd kinda lean towards having eric on my team)
tpj who did you say was the weakest link in florida? Johnny.
You claim he hasn't changed over time either.
So i guess you build your team on weaker players. (starting with yourself)
Riley didn't work as hard as you or borges.
As a goalie i would much rather face riley than eric, billy or borges for that matter
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Thanks. When someone mentioned Crosby vs. Malkin yesterday and Brett brought up the Gretzky vs. Lemieux question, I was looking at some of the old NHL records, like the Joe Malone 7 goal record.
I don't want to be called a Riley Basher, but sometimes its easy to look at statistical anomalies and try to use them to prove a point, but isn't that why they're anomalies? Because they seemingly go against what you believe to be the case?
I'll give you another one:
The 1928-1929 Season of George Hainsworth. George played one of the most magnificient seasons by a goaltender ever for the Montreal Canadiens. (Brett will like this.)
In an NHL season of 44 games, he only allowed 43 goals! He also set an NHL record that still stands with 22 shutouts! He also had a consectutive shutout streak of 343 minutes, 5 seconds, the second longest in history! He posted a 0.92 GAA and won his third Vezina trophy. Montreal finished that season with a record of 22-7-15.
You read correctly, 22 Wins.
EVERY MONTREAL WIN WAS A HAINSWORTH SHUTOUT!
So, what happened? He became the best goalie of all-time, right?
No.
What happened? Like with us, the game changed. You see, in George's dominant season, forward passing wasn't allowed (crazy, huh). So when the NHL relaxed some rules for the next year, George's GAA went up to 2.42 (ok, but not legendary) and he posted only 4 shutouts.
So again, when the game changes, some of the statistics of the old era no longer serve as an accurate means of comparing the new era, the "Eric-era".
If this wasn't the case, people wouldn't be wearing jerseys of Roy and Brodeur, they would be sporting sweaters of George Hainsworth.
Bagged Round Eggs Though, Tough, Drop Right In Sleek Containers Of Light Lemon Ice Sticks And Break Under Most Altitudes. Really, Interestingly, Eggy Lemon Tastes Oddly Orangey
The "Eric-Era"?! Are you kidding? That is hilarios!!!
This is a pretty ridiculous debate. How do you compare intangibles? Obviously the stats are subjective and can be spun however you'd like. But they're also vastly insufficient at measuring things that matter.
From a goalie's perspective, I would MUCH rather face Johnny than Eric. It's a matter of reaction time, and Eric's shot is much faster and he gets it off quicker. With that being said, Johnny plays a team game, and from the times I've seen Eric play, he doesn't. He's incredibly talented, there's no doubt about that. But way too many variables here are immeasurable, and it comes down to the type of player you want on your team. Given the option, I would much rather have Johnny on my team, since I value the defense, and Johnny plays it right.
As far as the comments that Johnny was the weakest link in Florida, I find that amazingly inaccurate. Offensively, Eric was great. But Johnny was the MOST EFFECTIVE forward at playing defense. That's not because he's my brother, it's because he played positionally sound. How do you measure that?
Obviously it'll be said that I'm biased because he's my brother, and I definitely haven't seen Eric play a ton of times. Just leave them both alone, they're both very good players and you couldn't go wrong with either.
--Dave
lets just get it out there all the bickerning of who is better is crazy we all know we will never live to be as great of a man or hockey player as ron none can grow a stash as nice as his so till the day comes when your locks above your lip are better then ron's you are all in peewee hockey leauge and ron the nhl
one last question how many points did eric have last week and how many did riley?
Okay, so apparently we can't express opinions without talking trash, so...
First, for the person that would like me on the bench when the "game is on the line" - go ahead and play me. This Sunday, every Sunday. You will lose, end of story.
Second, these are the numbers of the "Eric-era" (not just for me, but for Jared and B too). Spin them how you will:
Matchup Games Record Goals
JohnR Ron 11 10-1 8-2
JohnR Eric 7 3-4 10-10
JohnR Billy 6 4-2 7-5
JohnR Brett 3 3-0 5-2
JonB Billy 13 7-6 19-9
JonB Ron 12 5-7 16-10
JonB Eric 10 5-4 11-13
JonB Brett 8 5-3 10-7
Jared Billy 10 6-4 10-6
Jared Ron 9 7-2 10-2
Jared Eric 9 3-5 9-12
Jared Brett 5 2-3 4-3
Third, Disclaimer: this post contains nothing disparaging about Eric. Anything deemed offensive against Eric in this post is entirely made up in the head of the person reading it.
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